'Belief in your own voice': Joanna Mattrey & Christine Tobin on their new BAN BAM works

Improvised Music Company and New Music Dublin are delighted to partner on the world premieres of new works by Joanna Mattrey and Christine Tobin at this year’s festival. Violist/composer Mattrey and vocalist/composer Tobin were selected by a panel of international experts for IMC’s BAN BAM Commission & Development Award 2025, including a commission to produce these works and a bespoke mentorship and development programme over the course of the year.

Ahead of the premieres at this year's New Music Dublin Festival, Joanna & Christine spoke to NMD director John Harris about their new works, themes of disinformation, conflict, and truth in the arts, and their approach to making music in today's world.

Tickets for BAN BAM are available here.

Christine: My name is Christine Tobin and my new piece is called Pseudologia Fantastica, which means pathological liar. I want to address the spread of disinformation in the world at the moment. It's on a scale that has never been seen before, and people no longer know what's true. There's no sense of what reality is. People are confused and it's a very unsettling time, so I wanted to address that and bear witness to some of the particular factions of our society that are suffering as a result of the spread of disinformation.

Joanna: I'm Joanna Mattrey. I'm going to be premiering Battle Ready 2. It's an anti-war piece and it's about the shock and horror of realizing humans, in fact, haven't evolved much, and we find ourselves in a period of extreme brutality. My piece is going to be channeling some of the rage and grief around living through these times and living through these injustices that we see, and demanding more from us as humans, more from our leaders, and hopefully making a song or an ode for the sanctity of life, especially those who've been lost in all the tragedies happening in the current moment, specifically Palestine, Sudan, Congo. Kind of an act of sonic and visual resistance so that we will not be complicit, and that we have our voice. And that we can hopefully find some truth in the sound and in our ways of communing together as humans and sharing the space together. So yeah, it's going to be a great night!

Christine: I think so. There's plenty to say anyway. We've never been in this situation before where so much disinformation can be spread through the social networks. We're being flooded with all these lies and it's just making people's lives hell, some more than others. There's a real feeling that there's a faction that wants the destruction of life as we know it. So I'm glad that you're on the same page with that. And we'll be expressing ourselves differently, of course, but it's good. I felt I wanted to just, you know, call it out. I have a voice, so I'm going to use it for that. That's what I want to do.

Joanna: Me too. And I would also add, you know, like working with Improvised Music Company and improvised music in general can trace so much of its roots back to black American music. And the way that that music comes from their fight for liberation. I think in some ways, when you are an improviser, you have to pay homage to all the revolutionaries who've come before, and use their arts to fight for truth. So I do feel in a way we're part of a long legacy and maybe it's the best way to tell truth, through music. It’s universal.

Christine: I agree. I agree with everything you say. And on a personal level, I'm using effects, vocal effects, which I've never used before in a public performance. So it's a bit of a paradox, embracing technology and then damning it with the work I've chosen to do. But it's not the technology, it's the operators, the malign operators behind it.

Joanna: But that makes sense with the parallels, right?

Christine: Yeah.

Joanna: Because if we didn't have social media, we also wouldn't get these first person accounts of the real horrors and effects of imperialism and Western dominance across the world. You know, we wouldn't get to see the truth. Because a lot of times that's not coming into the mainstream news. But I'm not saying it's the only truth. I'm not sure.

Christine: Yeah. No, but it's good, you know, for the time being, there are people who are fact finding and fact checking. So thank goodness for them. But well, in certain parts of the world, we'll see how long they can do that for. But I think I'm optimistic despite all the crap that's going on now. I think there's been such unbridled greed, capitalism and the greed of it all has galloped away at a level I don't think we've ever seen, to such an extent. And I think it's the hatred then that comes with it and the disrespect for other human beings. And I think that's not human beings. We also have love and the need to have community and share and bring each other up. I think that will prevail.

Joanna: And I think music is a great vehicle for that, for connection, for communion. You know, in some ways it's the solution.

Christine: Right.

Joanna: Because I think so many folks have fallen victim to the fear of these times and it might make people make more extreme choices because they feel cornered. They feel afraid, and I think that loneliness is also sort of.. that isolation is also like a deliberate tactic, to keep us from banding together. And from realizing our collective power globally and locally and in our community. So I think in some ways we are so strong, but they've convinced us otherwise. And so we're lucky, as artists, we know we have a voice, and who knows how many people it will reach. I think everyone has something really important to share and offer as humans, you know..

Christine: It's a very basic connection, music. I think it's a really fundamental, primal connection. So despite music having been hijacked by the industry to see how much money can be made, squeezed out of it, I think it doesn't take away from what, fundamentally, it is to human beings and to society. It's the glue that brings us together… glue is not a nice word.

Joanna: I agree. I think it bypasses a lot of these boundaries that we get put into, these boxes or spaces that we're allowed to inhabit, and I think you can really become a unified thing. You share time together, as a listener, as a performer, you know, time doesn't just move… it takes you into a different dimension. I think you can kinda cut past a lot of these illusionary differences and, you know, find that.. peace and love, baby!

Christine: Bring it on!

John: I mean, just an observation: I think there's a particular urgency in the world.

Christine: It's palpable. I think it feels like we're in a real point of change and everything as we've known, all the structures are being thrown up in the air, totally dismantled. It feels like a breaking point. So, yeah, I do feel an urgency and am propelled to bring this work out.

John: I was very struck by what you just said about the roots of improvisation and protest. Coming from composition in my world, you’re coming more from Beethoven and the real establishment. Do you think there's almost a tension there between the sort of establishment and the roots in the ‘roots’ thing of improvised music?

Joanna: I wouldn't say that there is a hierarchy between one form of music or another. Although I would say many people would regard classical music as on a higher level than other genres, and I'm not sure I necessarily believe that's wholly founded, even though, like, certainly people have put so much work and effort and time into that. There is a lot of ableism around classical music. It's not affordable for everyone. It's not universally available for a lot of students and young people and families, instruments and lessons are very, very expensive. And so it's not an available route for some people who might feel really inclined to do music.

So I think in that way there is a tension, whereas improvisation, I think, is obviously a very broad term. It's not necessarily rooted in any particular geography, but I think it kind of starts with the premise that everyone does have something valuable to say. Let's give you the tools. Let's give you some vehicle to get your message out or to add to the canon of things that amazing people have said before you. And I think classical music can tend to be a little bit more exclusive in terms of like, you're the best one in the class. So you're the only one who's going to get a job.

I think that's not true in any music field. Working as a musician is often a patchwork of lots of different things coming together for, and no matter what style of music you play. But I do think more people should have access to classical music and more people should have access to improvisation as well. And I think it would be cool to see more education systems kind of embracing the strengths of both of those traditions.

Christine: I agree with a lot of what Joanna said. I think there was a great move, certainly in America, in the late 50s and 60s, towards deconstruction and improvising in visual arts and music. Not just jazz, classical music, all kinds. I always think music is the barometer of a time, and that coincided with a lot of people protesting about society as it was following wars that were happening around the world and that sort of thing.

It particularly became very significant during the ‘60s. But I think to improvise is a human [thing to do], it's part of our makeup.. I think it's a human impulse to do that. But I guess when we live in a society where we have to follow certain rules and regulations you kind of become socialized and put in your particular box, you become more inhibited and lose the freedom to just do it.

Joanna: The belief in your own voice.

John: I love something that Christine said about coming onto using electronics and effects, that actually you were frightened of.

Christine: Yeah, I am. Well, I'm frightened of technological things. So I decided last year I wanted to throw myself into it and see what happens. That's part of being a musician. I think you have to take risks and take yourself out of your comfort zone. And I thought it was time to learn something new as well.

Joanna: I have a theory that if you're actually scared of something, it means you secretly have a yearning for it, like you secretly want it. Because if you weren't interested in it, why would you be afraid? You wouldn't have an emotionally charged reaction, you know?

There's a Georgia O'Keeffe quote that says that she was scared every day she made art, and that she didn't let that stop her.

Christine: Yeah.

Joanna: And that also speaks to these times, right? Because we see these horrible articles and then what do you do? You witness. I don't want to forget. I don't want to blind myself to reality so that I can have a better day. I want to be able to say I was there and I contributed in some small way. I think this kind of balancing act between fear and hope is all part of the process in art and in just living life as a human. I think art and music makes us more human. It activates our empathy, it activates our spirit and our ability to listen and connect with others, you know? And I think that gives us a unique perspective, and why maybe we both feel called to make these works now, because we've been changed by our art, you know?

It's such a gift to get to grow and get to develop because of your work.

Not everyone gets that.

Christine: It's really great to have the opportunity.

Joanna: Maybe we're indebted a bit to the art, so we're paying it back.

Christine: And to the IMC.

Joanna: Definitely to the IMC, to New Music Dublin, to BAM BAM.

Christine: More, immediately.

Joanna: More, immediately, yeah. We haven't talked about specifically women composers, you know?

John: I actually have a question about women composers in Ireland - where in England composers might be asked 'What's your real job?' - is there something about the environment here that's different? The example I often give is that - in Ireland, the text that everybody references in Ireland is a modernist classic that nobody's ever read the whole way through. Some people have, but a lot of people haven't. You know, it's so... innocent or whatever. I do not know of another country where the sort of founding text is a modernist classic. And that somehow makes the act of creating something new a valid way to be and a valid way to do it.

Christine: That's interesting, yeah.

John: I was wondering whether that was a sense that you had, or whether you had a kind of counter-sense to it. So... do you feel that it is valid to be a composer, or do you have to fight to be one? Is it enough to say you are one, or actually, is that a dismissable concept?

Christine: It depends where you are and who you're talking to, but I don't feel that sort of dread every day or anything, or even on a weekly basis, but I lived away for a long time. I left in the late 80s and I moved to London, and then I spent five years in New York, and I returned here in 2020. So I was caught up a lot with a sense of homecoming, which I hadn't expected.

That kinda fed into my artistic reach, about having to make excuses for being a composer, or an artist, or anything like that. If I would jump into a taxi in Dublin, I'd make up a whole different persona. I'd say I was away and I'm just coming back, and I've got my family here and three kids. I don't have any kids, but… Because, if you start explaining - if you say to somebody, well, I'm a singer...

Then, you know, it's; “Would you be on the telly?”, “Are you famous?”

So, yeah, it can be a bit strange, but at this stage of my life, not as much.

John: Is it a good time to be a composer?

Christine: Gosh, I think it's a bit of both, really. 20 years ago you could do your own music and you could sort of have a steady income, some sort of stability from maybe doing sessions or some work for the TV or the radio.

But all of that's gone.. It's a different thing now with AI that can copy your sound. Not so good at the moment, but who knows in a few years' time. So that's the really scary bit, but then there is something in the atmosphere at this time. Because the world is more.. we live in a more global society.

So there's sounds and artistic influences from all over the place that are easy to access and to learn about if you want to. So all of that is good. And this time that we're living in, although it's quite difficult, it's also.. there's an electric sort of feeling about it, you know?

I think it's made you want to make new work. But with the AI thing, you could get very scared about that.

Joanna: I mean, before we had permanent dwellings, we had flutes made of bones. Let's be real. There's never not been music.. live music and humans.

It was one of our earliest inventions and creations. There's always been a bard, you know, somebody wandering around. These poets who kept the politicians in check, made kings and took kings down. The power of spreading information and being the one who goes from town to town, sharing your piece and sharing your knowledge.

I had an experience during COVID that I won't forget. I was in New York and it was a crazy time. Ambulances were the only sound you heard. It was a very intense place to be.

Everyone lost so much work, of course. And then we started playing shows in the park. Just sessions really. But they were shows. And the people who were walking by, you could see them just light up that there was live music. And there'd be hundreds of people there at the end. And you wouldn't have gotten that many folks at your door gig, but it was this real moment of ‘we need them and they need us’.

And I guess I just have to believe that's true.

I got in a debate with this programmer who was trying to convince me that going to a virtual concert is exactly the same as being at a show in person.

She had her bullet points and I was like.. “There is nothing you could say to me that would make me believe you, because I've experienced that tension, the electricity, the power of.. there is a kind of alchemy that happens with live performance..”

And I think no matter what, that stays the same.

Christine: That's the bottom line.

Joanna: Even if we all get day jobs, we'll still be out there. We'll still be out there. We're archivists, that's how I think about it. We're archivists of human experience.

Christine: I think I agree. I did a gig in London last week and we were having a discussion with the musicians and some friends who'd come along to it. They were saying that you can't replicate that thing that happens. Well, hopefully that won't be proved wrong.. it's a very unknown thing where it's all going.

But, yeah, the live thing is really, really important. You can do all your learning in classrooms and at home or whatever, doing research. But where you really learn is by hearing live music.

Joanna: I can't wait to see your piece.

Christine: Yeah, I look forward to yours!

Joanna & Christine will share their new works as part of the New Music Dublin Festival on Thursday 3rd April, The Depot at The Complex. Doors open 9pm.